knackers_02
Level 3: Gumshoe

Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!

 I just checked with Telstra Customer Service about my Data plan because lately Ive been chewing through 4 times my old usage with my Lumia 920 4 g phone and wanted to know why...They looked back and found some huge data sessions and quoted one session where  I blew   700+meg in 56 mins. The time  and date they gave me (when the 700 meg was used) allowed me to worked back to what was the culprit ....SKYPE!!!!!  I made  a Skype 4g plain voice call for 56 mins . Obviously  VOIP uses data for  voice  but 700 meg for 56 mins ?????? ...Never used the same bandwidth with Telstra before and Ive been a data user since the first data plans ever came out years ago and have a good sense of usage even using Voip over 3g, ADSL etc etc ..... .

 

After telling me that 700 meg was used in 56 mins I then asked Telstra  Cust serv for a copy of the 700 meg/56min  data session so I could check  stats like where the session was pointing was pointing, details of data flow speed  etc etc but he said due to privacy reasons they didnt keep those details!!!. Having worked as a marketer for many International Telcos including Telstra Im pretty  sure that the 4g platform  would have CDR'/traffic/data logs etc etc etcthat would show details I was after  however it most likely  wouldnt be  be readily available to the  Cust Serv person .... . Anyway  it got all to hard to explain this to the Cus Serv  person and as  I had another call coming I  I let it go. Although next time I get 700meg for a 56 min skype call I will ask to see the session/data logs off the platform  to ensure that Telstra is calculating these data sessions correctly.

 

Be aware Skype on Telstra 4 g will kill your data plan in hrs if you dont watch out 

 

BTW...I checked with Skpe here

 

 https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA1417/how-much-bandwidth-does-skype-need 

 

and see a voice VOIP data call uses  100kbps but not sure how kilibits per second mulitplies out to with Telstras stated  data usage of 700 meg over 56mins of skype...ANyone good with bits vs bytes can tell me what it should be as a data session  so as to compare with Telstra'stated usage of 700 megs??

 

Regards

 

Knackers 

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7 REPLIES 7
Level 22: Superhuman

Re: Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!


Having worked as a marketer for many International Telcos including Telstra Im pretty  sure that the 4g platform  would have CDR'/traffic/data logs etc etc etcthat would show details I was after  however it most likely  wouldnt be  be readily available to the  Cust Serv person


My understanding is that data sessions on the 4G network pertain to the data link layer (Layer 2 in the OSI model) – and the platform will record your usage from that perspective for billing purposes – but the information (e.g. with which servers on the Internet your handset interchanged data over TCP/IP) you appear to be after pertains to connections on the network layer (Layer 3 in the OSI model) about it.

 

Since Telstra does not determine your data usage volumes/charges on the basis of what happens on the network layer, it needs not monitor or record the information (which is more useful to the network service user than to the mobile network service provider, for troubleshooting network application issues), and even if it does, it is under no obligation to disclose or share it with customers upon request. Of course, if you're absolutely convinced that Telstra indeed logs every bit of TCP/IP traffic you use over your mobile service, and you feel you have cause for requiring Telstra to disclose it, then you can try to get a court to obtain it from the corporation by subpeona.


…not sure how kilibits per second mulitplies out to with Telstras stated  data usage of 700 meg over 56mins of skype...ANyone good with bits vs bytes can tell me what it should be as a data session  so as to compare with Telstra'stated usage of 700 megs??


56 minutes
× 60 seconds per minute
× 100 kilobits per second
÷ 8 kilobits per kilobyte
÷ 1024 kilobytes per megabyte

tells you how many megabytes you would expect to consume at a sustained average bit rate of 100kbps in 56 minutes.

——
Departed from CrowdSupport as of 12 June 2013, when the fun factor for me had finally completely evaporated with all the recent site layout and functionality changes, and the apparent efforts to turn a community goodwill-powered vehicle into something closer to a customer service channel.

The opinions and sentiments expressed above are mine only, and do not necessarily reflect Telstra's views or position. I work at Telstra, but my participation here is strictly in a personal capacity as a fellow Australian telecommunications services consumer, and you can safely assume you are not my customer, client, patron, benefactor or friend when I post in this forum.
knackers_02
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!

Since Telstra does not determine your data usage volumes/charges on the basis of what happens on the network layer, it needs not monitor or record the information (which is more useful to the network service user than to the mobile network service provider, for troubleshooting network application issues), and even if it does, it is under no obligation to disclose or share it with customers upon request.

 

Thats absolute garbage. Go tell that to the Small Claims tribunal or the Ombusman that  when a customer requests this information  ito validate his charges (that Telstra billed him)  that   you/Telstra  refuse to provide the information  as you stated above.....even though you have access to that information!!!!! !! .  . Mate good luck arguing that one in court to a VCAT Magistrate/Memeber" You would be out on your ear in 2 seconds flat.  

 

If you are going to billl a customer for a service and the customer disputes/queries  it and you have the platform records /info that supports the billing then it should be provided. End of Story. And in my case if this is available to show Telstra are processing 700 meg of data from my handset  for a 56 min call via skype  when skype clearly are saying it should be less  lthen you should provide the info,....so someone can look to see why this is happening!!!...Not Refuse to give the info!!!

 

That comment you made is typical of a non customer focused business where its   " Damn the customer we will give them what we want to give and not what is reasonable in the circumstances!!! "!!!! I hope the rest of Telstra dont think the way you do because if thats the way a customer is dealt with on a normal data usage query then you and the customer service staff are not helping them at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

Knacj\kers

 

 

rivenfox84
Level 5: Eagle Eye

Re: Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!

The problem I had with Telstra billing in this regard, and part of what I believe Drat was trying to say, is that smartphones tend to be connected to a 3G or 4G data connection longer than older phones, and Telstra billing isn't up to the task of monitoring data sessions. When I was trying to figure out how I was able to use up 500MB on a 1GB data plan in a matter of hours, I checked with Telstra about data charged on my bill. It was almost impossible to track down the culprit, as the individually logged data sessions could last as little as a few minutes to 30+ hours or longer (due to not needing to shut down or reboot the phone, severing the data connection, or when turning off 3G data and connecting to WiFi instead).

 

Whenever your phone is on and achieves a data connection to either 3G or 4G, that session lasts until the connection is disrupted or severed. This is the data session that is recorded on your bill, and the only thing Telstra reps can see.

 

This meant that my hope of tracking down whether my data usage was legitmate use, falsely charged, or the result of data leakage from an app couldn't be verified or ascertained. Telstra's logging system just isn't up to the task and is woefully designed for modern smartphones.

 

This is one of the reasons that Australian WP8 users want Data Sense to be jointly implemented in our handsets here in Australia by Telstra and Microsoft, because we can't rely on the Telcos for accurate and efficient data reporting.

 

I know this isn't much help, but this is my experience.

 

Regards,

R

Level 22: Superhuman

Re: Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!


knackers_02 wrote:

Thats absolute garbage. Go tell that to the Small Claims tribunal or the Ombusman that when a customer requests this information ito validate his charges (that Telstra billed him) that you/Telstra refuse to provide the information as you stated above.....even though you have access to that information!!!!! !! . . Mate good luck arguing that one in court to a VCAT Magistrate/Memeber" You would be out on your ear in 2 seconds flat.

 

If you are going to billl a customer for a service and the customer disputes/queries it and you have the platform records /info that supports the billing then it should be provided. End of Story. And in my case if this is available to show Telstra are processing 700 meg of data from my handset for a 56 min call via skype when skype clearly are saying it should be less lthen you should provide the info,....so someone can look to see why this is happening!!!...Not Refuse to give the info!!!


Section 6.5 of the General Terms for Consumer Customers in Our Customer Terms states,

6.5We are required by various industry codes to ensure that our bills are accurate and verifiable and we are committed to complying with these requirements. Our records are sufficient proof that a charge is payable unless they are shown to be incorrect.

 

Your billable mobile data usage is recorded and processed on the basis connected sessions, each with a duration and a volume of data transferred, on the data link layer between your device and Telstra's network, and not on the basis of your TCP/IP connections to servers on the Internet. For customers who have elected to receive detailed bills, they can already see that timestamp and duration of each session and the volume of data transferred.

 

If Telstra have records of your activity and/or TCP/IP sessions that identify the accessed resources on the Internet (i.e. on the network layer), those records are irrelevant for billing purposes, and so it does not have to produce those records for you on request and/or if you challenge the correctness of a bill, but like I said, you can try asking a court to obtain those records by subpeona even though you're powerless to get them yourself.

 

You're not charged or billed by Telstra for usage for the Internet service (Skype, YouTube, BitTorrent, World Wide Web, etc.) user's perspective, even though (incorrectly!) in your mind that's exactly the basis for which you pay Telstra. You connected a handset to Telstra's mobile network, and your handset acted as one of the end-points of data transfers over the mobile network. Telstra does not have to identify or record the other end-point(s) to charge you for mobile data usage legitimately. What you (or your handset) did to consume the data traffic is irrelevant to the legitimacy and correctness of the charges.

 

Is it so difficult for you to grasp that?

——
Departed from CrowdSupport as of 12 June 2013, when the fun factor for me had finally completely evaporated with all the recent site layout and functionality changes, and the apparent efforts to turn a community goodwill-powered vehicle into something closer to a customer service channel.

The opinions and sentiments expressed above are mine only, and do not necessarily reflect Telstra's views or position. I work at Telstra, but my participation here is strictly in a personal capacity as a fellow Australian telecommunications services consumer, and you can safely assume you are not my customer, client, patron, benefactor or friend when I post in this forum.
Level 22: Superhuman

Re: Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!


rivenfox84 wrote:

The problem I had with Telstra billing in this regard, and part of what I believe Drat was trying to say, is that smartphones tend to be connected to a 3G or 4G data connection longer than older phones, and Telstra billing isn't up to the task of monitoring data sessions.


Thank you (sincerely!) for taking a moderate stance on this and offering to rephrase my assertion, although I don't think you quite captured what I meant.

 

For billing purposes, Telstra does not have to know how you're consuming data traffic or which resources on the IP network you accessed. Records of your Internet activity are only relevant to such things as monitoring your use of service to determining whether it is in accordance with applicable Accepted Use Policy, and Telstra may elect not to monitor it or enforce the AUP.

 

When you use electricity at home, your energy provider does not have to know how you're using it, or whether you're getting some utility from it (instead of, say, having inadvertently left the TV or air-conditioning on even though nobody is home); you're simply charged for consumption, and that's the basis of your commercial agreement with the provider. It's not a case of the provider's billing system not being up to the task (of billing you correctly for usage), if it does not and/or cannot tell you just how you used the billable electricity consumption.

——
Departed from CrowdSupport as of 12 June 2013, when the fun factor for me had finally completely evaporated with all the recent site layout and functionality changes, and the apparent efforts to turn a community goodwill-powered vehicle into something closer to a customer service channel.

The opinions and sentiments expressed above are mine only, and do not necessarily reflect Telstra's views or position. I work at Telstra, but my participation here is strictly in a personal capacity as a fellow Australian telecommunications services consumer, and you can safely assume you are not my customer, client, patron, benefactor or friend when I post in this forum.
rivenfox84
Level 5: Eagle Eye

Re: Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!


@Drat wrote:

Thank you (sincerely!) for taking a moderate stance on this and offering to rephrase my assertion, although I don't think you quite captured what I meant.

 

For billing purposes, Telstra does not have to know how you're consuming data traffic or which resources on the IP network you accessed. Records of your Internet activity are only relevant to such things as monitoring your use of service to determining whether it is in accordance with applicable Accepted Use Policy, and Telstra may elect not to monitor it or enforce the AUP.

 

When you use electricity at home, your energy provider does not have to know how you're using it, or whether you're getting some utility from it (instead of, say, having inadvertently left the TV or air-conditioning on even though nobody is home); you're simply charged for consumption, and that's the basis of your commercial agreement with the provider. It's not a case of the provider's billing system not being up to the task (of billing you correctly for usage), if it does not and/or cannot tell you just how you used the billable electricity consumption.


I'm sorry if I didn't express myself well enough in the rephrasing and if there was any miscommunication. I believe I see what you're saying, but if I've still got it wrong let me know and I'll go sit in the corner Smiley Happy

 

So essentially what you're saying is Telstra doesn't need to know how you consume, only how much you consume, and that is reflected in the record keeping provided on "detailed" bills. It becomes not a matter of Telstra's record keeping ability but it's design. It's not that Telstra isn't up to the task, but that it has a completely different focus in the data monitored.

 

From a consumer's perspective, I can certainly understand how frustrating it can be to try and get a clear and transparent record of events in order to track down what the problem is. I had been trying to track down a potential data usage leak in an app when I was looking, and Knackers is trying to determine why they used more data than they were supposed to in a skype voice call. Telstra's system is unable to itemise their recorded data sessions in such a way as to provide a concise, accurate and transparent answer for either of these queries.

 

I guess one other point of clarification I'd like to make here is that, for my purposes at least, I'm not talking about itemised accounts of which server my phone is contacting and how much data it is downloading from that server. Honestly, such a system would no doubt count as a massive invasion of privacy. What I'm talking about is a narrower window of time, or rather smaller increments of time, when data sessions are itemised. However, I realize this is unrealistic.

 

Again, and I know it's up to both Telstra and Microsoft, having Data Sense enabled for Telstra customers would significantly remove these barriers. It would empower consumers to work out exactly how much data is being used up by which apps on their phone, and what connection was used for it. Then we wouldn't have to wait on hold or post here in the forums for help and guidance Smiley Happy

 

One day, one day.

 

Last thing, I know things can get a bit heated around here, but just asking everyone to keep in mind that at the end of the day a bit of common courtesy and kindness goes a long way.

 

Regards,

R

Level 22: Superhuman

Re: Beware of Skype on Telstra 4g with Lumia 920!!!!!


rivenfox84 wrote:

So essentially what you're saying is Telstra doesn't need to know how you consume, only how much you consume, and that is reflected in the record keeping provided on "detailed" bills.


Yeah.


What I'm talking about is a narrower window of time, or rather smaller increments of time, when data sessions are itemised.


Ah, I misunderstood the first time then, sorry.

If your handset (or tablet) actively disconnects from the mobile network frequently and/or when idle – as some custom firmware written by Android enthusiasts are known to do, in the name of reducing power consumption and improving perceived battery life – then Telstra's billing system will record and report many short data sessions.

 

Telstra's mobile network is not going to initiate disconnection of a handset or terminate a data session when it is idle, because many users do want data pushed to their handsets and tablets as new mail arrive, or someone sends them a message in some instant messaging app (e.g. iMessage), etc. and that relies on the handsets and tablets already connected to the data network. Furthermore, on some plans and pre-paid offers data consumed for a session is metered and billed in increments of megabyte, so the more data sessions over a period of time, the more data is consumed (either deducted from one's plan's included mobile data allowance, or charged additionally at a PAYG rate) or ‘wasted’ due to the rounding up.

——
Departed from CrowdSupport as of 12 June 2013, when the fun factor for me had finally completely evaporated with all the recent site layout and functionality changes, and the apparent efforts to turn a community goodwill-powered vehicle into something closer to a customer service channel.

The opinions and sentiments expressed above are mine only, and do not necessarily reflect Telstra's views or position. I work at Telstra, but my participation here is strictly in a personal capacity as a fellow Australian telecommunications services consumer, and you can safely assume you are not my customer, client, patron, benefactor or friend when I post in this forum.

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