Half Speed is OK... and the Coexistence story.

[mazzda]

Still wrestling to get better speed for a 50Mbps plan and in conversation with the Philippine call centre it goes like this.

Question - My speed is only half?

Answer - Half is OK.

Question - Oh really and why is it half speed?

Answer - It is because of coexistence.

Question - Can you explain coexistence to me.

Answer - A garble of words (fails dismally).

Then there is a long silence and talking in the background and then I am informed a case manager will contact me shortly. Looking forward to that.

Seems coexistence is the word of the month and can be used to to address most FTTN issues. Oh well I guess this is the NBN...

[DrQ]

Coexistance is in short the sharing of the same lines for both ADSL and NBN services during the cut over period. While nbnco are working on the lines and playing with the network during this period they have provided advise that the coexistence can have impact on the overall experience and generally they are pretty uninterested in speed issue complaints during this time. As the network owner nbnco are the ones who need to do the work to fix the issues but they don’t generally do that during the period while they are still working in the network connection.

[343GuiltySpark]

Coexistance does have an impact on speed. Its designed so that FTTN doesn't interfere with ADSL services while ADSL services are still active. Normally its for 18 months starting from NBN being available. Please post your modem stats so we can have a look and see whats going on:
On a Premium Home Network Gateway, T-Gateway, Gateway Max, or Gateway Max 2
(TG587, TG797, TG799, TG800):
http://10.0.0.138/ > Advanced > Broadband

On a Telstra Gateway
(Sagemcom F@st 5355):
http://10.0.0.138/ > Advanced > Gateway Settings > Device Info > General > xDSL (Bottom of Page)

On a Frontier Gateway or Smart Modem
(DJN2130 & DJA0230 ):
http://192.168.0.1/ > Advanced > Broadband

Default password is generally 'admin'
You're looking for line rates, power levels, attenuation etc

Are the tests being run over Ethernet or WiFi?
Are they being run during peak times (3PM-12AM)?

[mazzda]

Thanks DrQ the post was to demonstrate the level of discourse that masquerades as technical assistance in the Telstra call centre. It was a tongue in cheek question for the staff member who was desperately trying to get rid of me for asking all those pesky questions. I am aware of the coexistence problem with FTTN and the effect it has on speed ( but not to halve it). What also comes out if this that according to the staff member half speed is acceptable to Telstra (is this official?). I have posted modem stats previously and are working through them with Telstra and my newly appointed case manager, exciting times.

[mazzda]

Thanks I have already done this and you gave me some advice about the modem which I have taken up with Telstra. Haven't got an answer yet but you never know.

[Stormtigers2017]

Yep just got the same bull**bleep** story.
Sorry but that is clearly selling services to get people in without telling them the full story.
We were very excited at the thought of 50Mpbs only to discover we can only get 25 becaiuse of co-existence. Sounds like a sci-fi movie !!! What a load of techo bull**bleep**.
Malcom Turdbulls folly lives on.
Extremely disappointed

[343GuiltySpark]

Coexistence where it is in place, is to provide stability for existing ADSL users.

[Stormtigers2017]

Yeah I eventually found that out with some research,
What boils my butt though is YOU ARE NOT made aware of the existence of COexistence when you sign up. And now I am told that the speed boost because it cant be applied, will be 100% discounted. Except that speed boost is included in the plan I signed up for.
So if I can't get it and cannot attain the published package norms of 40-45, surely then I should be paying less per month until the package can be implemented properly.
Telling me its 100% discounted in the package is JUST SMOKE AND MIRRORS nonsense.

[343GuiltySpark]

The wholesale price from nbn co for the 25/5 and 50/20 tiers is the same. When NBN co made that change telstra upgraded most of its customers to the 50/20 for free. On the website it does say typical evening speeds not guaranteed and it does list factors that affect speed such as line length and other factors. These would all be included in the critical information summary given to every customer when signing up

[mazzda]

Yes looks like we are sunk until the changeover period is up. However you would think that it is incumbent on Telstra to notify customers about this before you sign up. Finding this out from some poorly paid worker in a call centre in the Philippines is not good enough. All the wasted time and effort that took me weeks to find out could have been avoided. Bad customer service. My concern is that when the changeover period is up it might stay at 25.

[mazzda]

Yes but nothing about the good old coexistence story.

[mazzda]

If you plug your address into this Republic website it will show if you are under NBN coexistence. Wish I known about this before would have saved a lot of time.

https://myrepublic.net/au/personal/nbn/ 

Also read this article

https://theaimn.com/co-existence-nbns-latest-excuse/

[mazzda]

I was wrong the website here https://www.telstra.com.au/support/category/broadband/nbn/What-technology-types-are-used-on-the-nbn-... mentions coexistence. It doesn't say however the speed will be halved. I wonder how many customers would know that.

[Jupiter]

When the coexistence period is over, you may still not be able to achieve a 50Mbps speed if your distance to the node is too great. FTTN (VDSL) suffers from the same distance based degradation of speed that ADSL suffers from. NBN Co's current aim is that all customers get a minimum attainable sync to the node of 25Mbps. Anything above that is a bit of a bonus. For reference, I am 1250m from the node and get 28Mbps (courtesy of some oversized cable in the street, the NBN tech when he came out couldn't understand how it was above 17Mbps to the Node as it was too far if I was on standard diameter copper wire).

From what I've been told from multiple sources, co-existence should not cut more than about 10% of your sync rate to the node.

[mazzda]

Thanks for your interest Jupiter. We are in the NBN lottery here, first prize is the FTTP, second prize FTTN close to a node and then the booby prize is for people like us a long way from the node. And then then there are those poor souls on wireless and satellite, and they don't get a prize.
At 1280m from the node I am surprised you get what you do, I have seen many speed/distance attenuation curves around that would have you on less. It must be as you say the thicker gauge wire and that was a stroke of luck. I am 906m from the node. I live on the beach front, beautiful place, but corrosion central and the pits are full of water in the wet season. I have seen down a pit with the rat's nest of wires and bits of tape and plastic bags holding it together, and I wonder how it even works at all. I had the house wiring tidied up, a new modem and Telstra assures me there is no NBN fault. They also claim to have checked the modem stats and they are OK however I had advice in this forum that something is not right with the numbers. I will get them to check the numbers again.
Telstra are not interested now they have declared coexistence. Similarly I read that removal of coexistence might give a small boost as you say. I heard (unconfirmed) that in the suburbs south of Cairns remedial works have started picking up those people who can't make 25Mbps by rewiring the copper or possibly installing micronodes. They must be out of the coexistence period but I haven't heard of anybody else in that situation. Jupiter we might miss out again because we can make 25. There is no guarantee NBN will automatically lift the coexistence at the end of 18 months either as there will be reasons real or imaginary why they won't do it.

"There is never a more exciting time to be on the NBN"

[343GuiltySpark]

I went back over your original post, did using the old F@st5355 make any difference?

[Jupiter]

They will remove coexistence at the end of 18 months as it makes their network easier to manage. Coexistence is only there to protect ADSL services from suffering from crosstalk during the 18 month migration phase. But yes, if the copper leading to your house is poor, then you will end up with a slower/unreliable service.

Unfortunately, Telstra can't do anything in this instance as the infrastructure is owned by NBN Co. They can only ask them to investigate. With a sync rate of less than 25 Mbps, persist with the complaints (above that and NBN Co will reject the request unless it is a >50% drop from what a customer previously got). I'm not with Telstra with my NBN service and it took 6 months of badgering my RSP before they escalated and got an NBN Co tech (a rare resource - they really are - the guy who came to my place had been working 3 hours drive away the previous day) dispatched. It was worth it in the end.

[mazzda]

My synch rate is 25,9 so they must have rejected the request, that is why Telstra has shut it down. Telstra was very smart selling all those old wires to NBN. Yes heard NBN techs are a few and far between.

[mazzda]

I haven't tried it yet, as I am paying Telstra the fix this thing. I am raising the issue you outlined with the case manager in the morning. If no success then I will try the old modem, will keep you informed.

[mazzda]

Yes you would think NBN would want to get out of coexistence as soon as possible to get the thing working properly.

[DrQ]

They have to maintain it for the 18 months to ensure there isn’t major issues for the ADSL users who have the 18m to cut over to the new network.

Nbnco would prefer everyone over straight away I would expect if they could.

[mazzda]

Do you know of any cases of the end of the coexistence and what has happened with speeds?

[DrQ]

The people I know who have had minor increases... one was away from the node but their difference was only about 2Mbps... they went from 19 to just over 21.

[mazzda]

i haven't heard of anybody yet. Theoretically I am out of coexistence in 7 weeks time so I don't think I will be getting in the champagne going by your experience.

[DrQ]

I just checked with the other person. I know they didn’t notice any difference but they are over 50Mbps on their line speed and their plan is 50Mbps. Their line speed went up 1Mbps though from the stat they sent me when they first got connected last year.

So those cases are minimal difference. One in vic and one in nsw.

As Jupiter has said it isn’t expected to be any more then maybe 10% and that is more likely to be at the bottom end. If you are syncing at the 25 mark don’t expect more then maybe 3Mbps from that alone... although I guess for some people on ADSL still that would be a double in speed...

[mazzda]

Thanks DR Q, I guess I am expecting too much but I have to keep reminding myself Australia is number 51 (last time I looked) in world speed rankings. I spend half the year in Japan and my house there is fibre to the premises and always in the 90's and never drops out so it is a big step down to be dealing with this FTTN system. Thanks for your help I am always humbled by the generosity of strangers.

[DrQ]

We do have two issues which strongly go against us with the rankings, the first is that faster speeds have cost so much more so people would just take the 12Mbps speed, so even when people could get faster, they just didn't because of the price... that should start to improve now that 50Mbps is the most common on many offers now with the new pricing... but that was part of the argument for not needing FTTP... (the pricing structure would mean even with 100% of houses on FTTP, we would still be middle of the pack for overall speed, faster than now but middle).

The other thing is that in comparison to Japan, the cost per property to install FTTP is huge, I read one estimate that had Japan and South Korea at under $1000 per connection, whereas ours is approximately $7000 per connection because of the size and spread... If we lived in real metro cities it would be much more likely we would get better internet but we insist on having our urban sprawl...

I am lucky enough to have FTTP, when we were looking for the block to build I made sure that it was in an area that was already underway for FTTP so it wouldn't be changed... I would love to see nbnco change up their structure, have a general speed of 'up to 100' meaning that for FTTN you get what your line can achieve, and have options for me to get faster without having to pay $1000 per month (or having multiple connections bonded together)

[mazzda]

The rankings will improve as more people migrate to the 50Mbps plans, I won't contribute very much to the average at 25Mbps. I pay half in Japan compared to Australia and that includes a TV package. The installation costs are less because most of it is above ground not attractive but effective. Even small towns have a network like this. I saw a house connected in 20 minutes. This picture was taken in Korea but Japan is similar. You are one of the lucky ones who won first prize in the NBN lottery and many Australians would envy you.

[Jupiter]

And with Japan having close to 128 million people living in an area under twice the size of Victoria make the economies of scale completely different (roughly 10 times the population density). Per person or km2 it is far cheaper to roll out a network and can get far more revenue for it.

[343GuiltySpark]

On the plus side, new housing estates are generally going to be fibre.

[mazzda]

The picture was to demonstrate a different distribution method (see thread) and how easily it can be connected. But yes lots of people, they bit the bullet, spent big and have had this for a long time so it's probably paid for by now and making money, I see Telstra revenues are down partially due to the NBN, not making as much money in spite of increasing numbers of subscribers.