leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Stability Profile Issue

Recently I log a fault because I was getting some bandwidth issues after a lot of rain in the area. I was only able to push about 25mb down and about 15mb if I remember correctly. I started chatting to Telstra just to make sure there wasn’t any shaping on my line or something causing the issue cause I still was able to sync approx 50/25.

 

After a long conversation I missed a phone call from Telstra but they left a message saying that they have applied a stability profile, sent a new modem and have a nbn tech coming to help with the dropouts.

 

Now from then on I have only been able to sync at 40/13 with a noise margin of over 12db. I also tried the new modem, a NBN tech has been (to help with dropouts even tho I wasn’t having any) and he changed my port at the node.


Long story short I have been in 3 now 4 conversations trying to get the stability profile removed because I never had any dropout issues and the profile actually makes my sync worse.

 

They have at least twice now said they have removed the profile but I am seeing absolutely no difference and the noise margin isn’t changing (expecting around 6db

without the stability profile). I thought maybe they had the wrong service records since the nbn tech changed the port. 

I got them to check my MAC address in the portal and it matches. Am I going crazy here?

I support over 1200  nbn services in my job which were all primary fttn in the beginning. I have seen a lot of issues with fttn but I have never seen a stability profile been “supposedly” removed and not seen any change in the sync parameters (current 40/13, 12db noise margin)

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cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

If the nose margin is 12 db and sync speed is 40/13 on a 50/20 plan then it does sound like a noise profile is still applied to your link. If you haven't already you could try factory resetting the modem.

 

When you say the link was sync at 50/25 before the stability profile and is now syncing at 40/13 is that the maximum sync speed or the actual sync speed. If it is actual sync speed then the loss in speed was not due to the rain effecting the link. If the low speed was due to rain effecting the link there would have been a corresponding  reduction in link maximum sync speed. Any shaping on the line would have  decreased the actual sync speed. When you were measuring speed was the device connected by Wi-Fi or was it a wired connection. Did you try testing speed on several devices.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

I have tried factory resetting the modem just yesterday.

 

The approximate sync speed of 50/25 was what I was the maximum reading I was getting normally prior to the rain and had been since start of my contract (when nbn was first available in the area). 

After the rain the maximum sync speed had dropped but not by much but it was the actual performance of the service I was questioning. When I am saying shaping I wasn’t meaning shaping at the nbn port level I was more querying whether any shaping/policing was being applied to my “Telstra” component of the service because I was unable to push past a certain value (around 25mb) consistently throughout the whole day, despite syncing higher (50/20). To be honest I am not sure how the QOS is applied to Telstra account but they confirm that the speed boost was still applied to my account (which I believe just means I am in the QOS profile that averages 50/20 during peak). 

After the shaping profile was added I took a hit in maximum sync speed of approximate 40/13. It has stayed that way since, even after the nbn tech change my port on the node, supposedly fixed a fault in the pit between my house and the node and change a socket on my house to just a straight RJ connector instead of the old school phone connector.

 

Maximum sync speed didn’t change and the NBN tech said agreed to get the stability profile removed if I wasn’t experiencing dropouts, even though he showed me the job was logged with “dropouts” not speed issues.

 

I have tried speed testing with wired and wireless across multiple testing sites with the same results of through put. Just as a side note I can push data close to the sync speed I am getting now, unlike on the day where I initially logged the call. I just can’t get my maximum sync back up seemingly because the stability profile isn’t actually being removed.

 

I have also been told twice now that the stability profile has been removed despite no change in noise margin. I don’t know what else do.

 

 

 

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

UPDATE: Just thought I would add that the modem seemed to have resync about 6 hours ago and it seems like in the downstream direction the noise margin has change along with the sync speed, but the upstream has barely change (although my line rate is still under 14mb). I don't quite understand what is happening here.

 

cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

It looks like there is still a stability profile in the upstream direction or the modem might still be applying a QOS limit on the upstream. You could try resetting the modem. I had to reset my modem when I changed plans from 25/5 to 50/20. The download speed increased but modem was limiting upload sync speed to 6.2 Mbps.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

I have tried resetting the modem just then but essentially the same outputs. Is there even a process to get Telstra to look at a specific direction for stability profile? I am hesitant to go through the previous process as I spent many hours and four different people to get it this far. I did log a complaint through the system, but I can't tell whether that is even still opened.

 

Jupiter
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

The Node that you are connected to can also adjust its setting automatically to give a stable connection, so it's not always as simple as asking a Telstra consultant to remove a stability profile. Sometimes it does require a visit by an NBN Technician to troubleshoot the connection properly and eliminate the root cause.

Never be afraid to back yourself when trying new things, just always make sure you have 3 escape routes if things go wrong.
cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

5.1 db is a bit low for noise margin in the down direction. There might be problem causing the node to automatically limit the speed in up direction. Could you post the line error statistics these will indicate how good the link is.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

It looks like Seamless Rate Adaption is kicking in, in the downstream connection. Noise margin has decreased and attainable rate has dropped since I checked this morning. It seems strange that the attainable rate for upstream seems locked at 13.48. Hasn't budge across any of the screenshots.

 

Here are the DSL statistics you have requested.

cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

The large number of CRC, Errored Seconds and Severely Errored seconds even with the noise profile applied indicates there is a problem in the upward direction. On a normal connection there are usually only one or two errors . See image below which was recorded over a 24 hour period compared to the 2 hours for your link. I don't know if you will have any luck getting the line fixed as the speed meets minimum requirements for a FTTN connection. 

 

Do you have more than one wall phone sockets? Extra sockets wired in Parallel to main socket cause a bridge trap and can drastically reduce the speed and also cause stability problems.

 

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

If you believe that it might be an internal wiring type issue, then maybe a cause could be from the NBN technician changing the socket to an RJ connector. Normally I would suspect that it would have improved the connection not made it worse.

When I bought the house they definitely had more phone sockets connected throughout the house (as in almost one to every bedroom). I have removed all of the connections except for one which the service is delivered on now. I suspected that it shouldn't be causing a problem, as those sorts of issues normally come up in the AVC line state tests on the nbn portal for FTTN (suspect TAP installed).

Feels like a lost cause....

cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

The Bit loader graph will give a good indication of any Bridge taps including bridge taps in the street wiring. The bits per tone should gradually decrease as frequency increases. Any valleys indicate a bridge tap. See example below. The first is a cable with no Bridge tap. The second has a bridge tap due to phone socket wired in parallel.

 

No Bridge TapBridge Tap

 

When phone sockets were removed was wiring disconnect at the socket or was it disconnected from the street cabling. If wiring disconnected at socket the other end if still connected to street cabling will cause a bridge tap.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

The bitloader graph on the Telstra modem is a bit limiting in seeing it all at once. You have to use the scroll bar and it isn't great when trying to get the overall picture. It doesn't like like a consistent decreasing graph though.

See attached horrible quality GIF for reference.

 

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

Strange thing is I just tried another modem and I am getting exactly the same 13.48 attainable upload rate (max ~19mb) Surely the fact that that number is being locked means that it is being hard coded somewhere in the node configuration.

cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

Bit hard to tell but it does look like the valley near the start of the bit loading graph is due to a bridge tap. Video below is from my link which does not have any Bridge taps.

 

 

My line did have bridge tap. First image below is before bridge tap removed and last image is with bridge tap removed.

 

Bit Loading Graph 38 Mbps

 

Bit Loading Graph 49 Mbps (Bridge Tap removed)

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

So how would I go about getting a bridge tap removed if it is in the street wiring? I would suspect that they would have detected and removed them when they come out recently. Normally the AVC tests on the NBN portal can detect them, so surely Telstra could see a high likelihood of one existing.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

Well I thought I would try my luck with the support chat again tonight to see whether they could check if I still have a shaping profile in the upstream direction and whether they can detect any TAPS in the NBN AVC tests.

Another 1 hour of my life going through the questions of "does your modem have power and what lights are on".

This is crazy that there is no continuity with tickets etc. Even if I reference older tickets, complaint numbers etc I am back to square one and it is just a roll of the dice. They are investigation drop outs again and I bet they will put me on a stability profile once the conversation is done.

The Telstra network is one of the better RSP networks out there, but there support system surely has to be one of the worst. I am higher considering churning to Aussie Broadband, only because I have been told you speak to people who aren't just reading scripts and can troubleshoot effectively.

Apologise for the frustation, but I have speak close to 8 hours I reckon on chats in the last couple of weeks, with limited resolve.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

What would be causing the attainable rate of 13.48mb upload across two modems that could be my issue? That is two decimal places the odds of that staying at that rate while the noise margin changes and with things like SRA in affect, it makes no sense. If you reboot your modem it would almost certain change even if only by decimal points if the environment is super stable. This number is persisting between reboots and modem changes.

cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

I agree with you about Telstra support being hopeless. Telstra is in the process of bringing all telephone support back to Australia. Perhaps we might get better support when this occurs.

 

If the modems are the same make and same model changing modem's will not effect speed. On my connection I find that upload speed is fairly constant and download speed might vary by a few Mbps over time. I have also found speed varies depending on brand of modem. There is little variation in speed on the Technicolor modems (Telstra Gateway Frontier, Telstra Smart Modem and Telstra Gen 2 Smart Modem).

 

If you take a kook at the attenuation figures you will notice that line attenuation is constant in both direction and upload noise margin only varies 0.4 dB which is why the upload speed has not changed. The Noise margin in the down load direction has gone from 5.1 dB to 7.1 dB which is why speed has gone from 55 Mbps to  48 Mbps.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

Well basically 4 hours in chat and they close my chat saying "my issue will be automatically resolved by our network team". Then the standard thank you and stay safe.

I am going to get the "lead in cable" from the Telstra demarcation point in my house to the rj connector near my modem replaced on the weekend with some cat5e solid core and hope that there will be some measurable difference. At least I will be able to rule around issues around my internal cabling.

I am not confident at all that anything will happen on the Telstra end. I just know if I could speak to someone with a technical background it would have been like a 10 minute conversation.

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

Even though I was assured at least 10 times last night throughout the chat that they understood my problem and they would have it fixed for me. I checked again this morning and still no resolved.

Started the chat up again, added the reference number of my previous ticket and asked what the "action required" was on the ticket status.

I kid you not the first question I got asked was "Please check is WIFI button on modem is turned on. If No please turn it on and let me know?"

 

I work in a NOC managing services and a majority of them are NBN connected businesses. If one of my staff members troubleshooted at this level I know they wouldn't have a job for very long at all.

I don't even understand the logic behind the questioning sometimes.

I am lucky that when I am dealing with the over 2000 Telstra services at work I have access to the Telco Ops Team, because if this is how an interaction went normally there is no way they would stay in business.

cf4
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

Yes it appears that the first in Telstra support has no Technical knowledge and is just follow a script starting with the same question irrespective of what the fault might be. You might have lodge another complaint at least that way you should always be speaking to the same case manager.

 

I have found that there is very difference in performance between using Telephone cable and cat 5e cable as long as the cable is single stranded twisted pair. See image below. The main effect on FTTN performance is how the cable has been wired. There should only be one cable connected to street cable.

 

leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

I have logged another complaint, although with no way of knowing the status they could just be closing them off for all I know.

I am going to hopefully replace that small amount of cable I have control over on the weekend and then maybe wait a week for the complaint process to hopefully kick in (I don't really know the ETA for these) and then if nothing changes I will just churn. It might be worth it just for alleviating the frustration of the Telstra support alone.

I have been recommending people go Telstra for years because they had the reported best CVC ratios by the people I talked to in the BOC & ESLA teams in NBN, especially compare to any of the TPG owned ISP's. Over the last maybe 2 years though I have had a lot of people that I have recommended Telstra tell me of similar horror stories. I just didn't realise it was this bad. I can't honestly recommend Telstra to anyone anymore and more and more people in businesses are coming to my company to churn away from Telstra for their L3 IP VPN services for similar "support" issues.

Jupiter
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

It takes 5 business days for a complaints manager to be assigned and they should make contact with you shortly after that.

Never be afraid to back yourself when trying new things, just always make sure you have 3 escape routes if things go wrong.
leonhart83
Level 3: Gumshoe

Re: Stability Profile Issue

The complaints manager contacted me and basically said that they couldn't do anything regarding the locked upload sync. They said because the tests come back clear the call will just be rejected and it is basically impossible to get it fixed even if they know there is an issue.

Long story short.
1. I logged called to get them to check congestion and/or issues with my service configuration because I was having throughput issues.
2. Telstra incorrectly log a dropout issue case with NBN and apply stability profile.
3. Spend roughly 8-10 hours on chat with Telstra to try and fix their blunder.

4. Sorry can't fix the issue that we created. Have a good day.

Jupiter
Level 25: The Singularity
Level 25: The Singularity

Re: Stability Profile Issue

You could try and approach NBN Co directly to see if there is anything they can do to remove any stability profile that has been set in their system. When they say that you need to go through your provider, tell them that you have tried that multiple times but NBN Co keeps rejecting the request.

 

If you get someone sensible, you might get a favourable outcome.

Never be afraid to back yourself when trying new things, just always make sure you have 3 escape routes if things go wrong.

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